Oral History - Correspondence

The "BOLD", Juno Beach

On November 10 Kate and I were in Panama City, Panama on our way to Buenos Aires for a holiday with Gord and Leslie. My thoughts turned to those who are remembered on November 11, especially my uncle Mac. I have a copy of a type-written paper, given to me by Nancy Hiseman (uncle Mac's daughter, my cousin), which was authored by a "Karen Sykes" while a history student at Western.

With a little bit of research on Google I discovered that someone with the same name and Western background is a professor at Manchester University in the United Kingdom. So I wrote to her, hoping this was the same person, to ask permission to share her paper:

I believe you did an oral history of my Uncle Mac Dixon when you were at Western. I have a copy of your type written report dated Jan 3, 1983 where you had interviewed him in Mitchell. I'd like to share it on my blog to honor Mac on Nov 11.

Do you mind?

My intention is, and remains, to transcribe the text but I haven't done that yet.

Shortly thereafter on Friday morning November 11, we had arrived Thursday evening in Beunos Aires, I received her reply and additional insight to the experiences of those who survived D-day:

Dear Mr Quinton

Thank you very much for writing to me. Did you know that Mac's son Gordon had been my classmate in high school?

As the years go on, I have grown increasingly aware of what a great privilege it has been to have known the veterans of that extraordinary event called D-Day. We will not see the like of men like Mac and his generation again. My mother, who still lives in Mitchell told me when he died. It saddened me. I since have looked for a cassette tape of the interview in my mother's house, but I think it does not exist. Of course, I would send it to your uncle's family if I do ever find it.

The transcript you have is probably a copy of one I deposited in the First Hussars Regimental Museum in 1983. I'm happy you might use it. Matters of intellectual property have changed and escalated dramatically since that decade when I interviewed Mac, and if there are any rights to reuse, I imagine that the Regiment 'possesses' the copy right. To my mind, its greatest value lies in sharing it with others, and your blog is a fine place to do that.

It was a piece of research work undertaken while I was in the final year of my undergraduate history degree at the University of Western Ontario. The class was taught by Professor Jack Hyatt (also a veteran) and focused on the practice of oral history. Each student collected two interviews, and as it happened, I spoke each of Roger Pauli (Pop - because he was a father when he enlisted) and William Dixon (Mac) of the First Hussars. It was happenstance that led me to members of the same regiment, and a bit unusual too - most of the men around Mitchell and Stratford would have joined the Perth Regiment (infantry).

Pop and Mac were in different squadrons C and B respectively. I mention it because the entirety of Mac's squadron B died near Brettville about two weeks after the landing, known now as the regiment's 'black day'. It remained difficult to know what happened to them from the few gathered accounts of only a handful of men to return. But it seems the squadron had been ambushed. I am unsure that my interview did not go deeply into his experience that day, but Mac felt that he had given the fullest account of what happened to the higher in command at an earlier time. It is a terrible thing to remember an entire squadron destroyed - I believe about 50 1st Hussars supporting the same number of men in the Regina Rifles infantry in that field. In later years, I've spoken of Mac's experience of the first month after D-Day to others I've met while living in England, a few men who are serving or retired military. They say little more than let out a low gasp at the loss of an entire unit of nearly 100 men in one afternoon. "Those guys" One said, "we don't get orders (in Afghanistan and Iraq) like that anymore" and said no more.

But the story of the first month of the war really was Mac's to tell, and not mine. Looking back at the whole of his time in the north of France, in a strange way the hectic experience of losing his tank in the stormy waters on the morning of the invasion might have been a blessing: Tank drivers did not last long during the first months in France. When a tank was shelled and then burned, the route out was too complex to escape quickly to safety. Most drivers died while breathing air so hot that it destroyed their lungs.

Two comments remain in my memory (I do not have the transcript that you do) One of the two men, perhaps Roger Pauli commented to me, that the problem facing the armoured regiments during the D-Day landing was neither the storm or the remaining mines on the coral reef near Juno beach, it was simply that tanks don't float"

Mac shared a story of the end of the month of fighting, when they finally were sure that the Caen peninsula was secured, and they had a base in Normandy. General Montgomery visited them. After a short speech in which he shared that Churchill had known that the first wave of the invasion force would not make it and believed neither would the second wave but thought that the third stood a reasonable chance, he concluded "So, Well done Boys, you made it!" I can hear Mac's voice commenting to me, "What kind of thing to say was that!" But Mac had the paused before he shared that after his short speech, the General shook the hand of every soldier of every regiment assembled in the town of Caen and walked up and down lines of them to do so.

with all good wishes

Professor Karen Sykes

Director of Postgraduate Research,

Social Anthropology

With Professor Sykes permission I shared what have posted to my blog. Our conversation continued over email. I wrote back to thank her and said:

Gosh, you've shared so much and I've learned about things I'd never heard before. I had no idea.

I'm 70, just a little older than Gordon. Walter, the older brother, is my age. As I age these stories become more important to preserve. I'm not a historian, not even the family historian.

Mac never talked about the war, or at least that was the lore. At my mom's funeral, she was Mac's older sister, he said the war was a complete waste of time, that so many had died, and that nothing had changed. I increasingly understand how he must feel.

Your kind words and insight is appreciated.

Today we're in Beunos Aires. On the plane I watched the recent version of "All Quiet on the Western Front". The idea of silly young boys going off on an adventure only to discover the frightening reality of the battlefield probably applies to Mac. The pictures of him as a cocky, proud recruit make me wonder. All wars are awful ... we have a colleague in Kharkiv who is living through the current one. I never imagined we would be living through another.

I also shared with her my blog so she could see what I had posted and shared the correspondence with family and many replied that they were not aware of this story. David, my next older brother, replied

....I can't thank you enough for sharing the attached "oral history" covering Uncle Mac. I had no idea that this interview, this record even existed. How did you come across this major piece of information?

Like you, the interview in question outlines a lot of facts re Uncle Mac's experiences...and that of Uncle Walter to a lesser extent...which I never heard of before. It's an amazing recounting of his life and in great detail. One can almost "hear" Uncle Mac speaking to the interviewer in very honest and polite terms.

As family, I recall being encouraged to not question Uncle Mac on his wartime experience. If he wanted to share something, that was fine; but, don't question him out of concern for his own well-being. This interview tells us so much and provides so much detail....especially the horror of war, the sacrifices made by so many, and, the truly AMAZING fact that Uncle Mac even survived. Talk about a cat living 9 lives!!

In the end, aside from reinforcing our memories of Uncle Mac as family, and, truly outlining his heroic and selfless acts of bravery in foreign lands during WWII, I can't think of a better and more honest war-time movie yet to be made. It makes one both proud to have known Uncle Mac, and, humble in dealing with today's inconsequential challenges.

Tony, my oldest surviving brother, added his comments:

There isn't much I can add to David's comments. Every time I hear about his wartime experiences I learn something new. How he lived through it all is truly amazing. He was an modest man and I'm so proud to be related to him. Thanks for tracking down this history.

Our niece Alison shared her comments: 

Thank you Uncle Reg for passing Uncle Mac’s interview along. I just finished the read through…just can’t believe what he went through…staying alive so long in the waters and crawling for miles, I just can’t believe his strength and will to survive. To think back then too, the horrors of war he went through and coming home, how he survived PDST when it wasn’t identified back then. I wonder how Aunt Shirley was able to support him and guide him for the rest of his life. An amazing woman. I talk to Colin every year on Remembrance Day about Uncle Mac and Uncle Walter.  This summer, we took him to the Canadian War Plane museum where we actually found Uncle Walter’s name in their directory.

It’s extremely sad to hear what is going on in Ukraine and to have you actually know someone there I’m sure breaks your heart even more. To think they may not have power during the winter months…

 And to these family comments and memories I added:

I'm pretty sure I got this from Nancy. Just doing my part to share and preserve in this digital world. It is available through the archives of the 1st Hussars.

I read it over again this morning before sharing. It is quite the story. Still brings tears. Karen Syke's insight in her note is so helpful.

On the way here to Beunos Aires on the 10th I watched the recent version of "All Quiet on the Western Front". A different war, and from the perspective of the other side, but the story of silly young men off on a lark only to discover hell on earth rings true in the stories uncle Mac was able to relate about his time in battle. The smiling pictures of a cocky young recruit we have contrast so sharply with the battle stories.

Sadly we are here again. You might have seen some of my FB postings about our friend Igor in Kharkiv who lives with daily bombardment by Russian invaders of homes and critical infrastructure in his home town in Ukraine. Over 260 days learning to live in this current hell.

The new world order continues to defy common sense.

Professor Sykes replied and added more details. Especially her recollections of the interview and her knowledge of the wider context. In particular, it seems that there was an expectation that D-day might have failed (cf. the Dieppe landing) and that many more would have died before there was a successful landing in Europe.

Thank for posting the interview Mr Quinton. I've no copy myself, and not read it since I sent it to the regimental archive. I winced as I read it because I could see that I was 'tone deaf' to Mac's experience and missed chances to nudge him into a fuller story.

All Quiet on the Western Front is an extraordinary book. It amongst the best of the literary works that give us reasons not to go to war as a 'solution'. And Mac and Shirley too were right that the war cost too many young men their lives. It left its marks for years later on them, and on Mac too. I see it's not recorded in the interview here, but Mac did speak more freely and more animatedly when we were done the formal part.

I think Mac suspected that the generals created the tragedy his unit suffered of the 11 June. The war records were embargoed for 50 years (some 100) and therefore the events were not much discussed for several decades, but later historians think that it seems plausible that Mac's regiment had been sent ahead as a decoy that day. The 1st Hussars met the main German Panzer Division into combat north of the advance of the rest of main push towards Caen. In regimental history its said that the sacrificed men enabled the success of the day. But, that's how war histories are written for the official record.

It's taken a very long time to get the more human story. I think that interview is pretty pale by comparison to what later records would show. A few years ago, I thought of Mac's somewhat bitter recollection of Montgomery's speech, and his perception that the general had admitted that Churchill and others believed that they were sending two waves of the invasion to death on D-Day. After some embargoes on military records lifted in 1995, amongst other things researchers got access to the early maps of the invasion plans. The maps recorded the beaches by different fish. On that first map Juno Beach was named Jelly (fish) Beach, the others Gold (fish) Sword (fish), etc... remained the same on later versions of the plans. One historian doggedly researched the reasons or the changes only to find Churchill's papers and diaries recorded it. Jelly became Juno because Churchill couldn't bear to think that he would send young Canadian and British men to die at a place with a silly name.

Well, today the BBC reminded us that the war poet, Sigfried Sasson said only Lucifer would want humans to forget what they commemorate on 11 November. That might be true.

Thanks for putting up the interview. It's good to know it has some use.

Professor Karen Sykes

Director of Postgraduate Research,

Social Anthropology

My final correspondence to Professor Sykes was to thank her for her permission to us the interview and to let her know that her comments were shared as well 

I have shared the blog with family and friends via Facebook. Many really appreciate your work and are pleased, nay stunned, to read of his recollections. We all wince about our youth, yes I could have done better is easy to say, it's harder to have been. We're older than that now.

I share your notes with family who are keen to know more. I hope you don't mind.

I will come back to this story in my blog and fill in the details that you've shared. Your insight is very much appreciated and sadly not known by us. We walked carefully around Mac knowing, or being told, of the damage war had done.

Ps. I am simply Reg, not Mr Quinton. I am a UWO graduate as well and around about the time you were graduating in History I was developing email solutions at Western before we had an internet.

Again, many thanks. You've been too kind.